The Quiet Warrior Podcast with Serena Low

104. How Idealistic Women Can Lead Authentically in Imperfect Systems — with Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves

• Serena Low, Introvert Coach for Quiet Achievers and Quiet Warriors

Share episode

Today on The Quiet Warrior Podcast, I’m joined by Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves — leadership strategist, consultant, coach, facilitator, historian, and author of Leading with Courage: A Career-Long Guide for Idealistic Women. With more than 25 years in higher education and nonprofit leadership, Jodi brings both scholarship and lived wisdom to the conversation.
This episode is a gentle but powerful exploration of leadership for introverted, values-driven women — especially those working inside imperfect systems. Jodi shares how her own career journey moved from the pursuit of knowledge to the pursuit of connection, what she learned about navigating large groups as an introvert, and why values-driven leadership is essential for creating inclusive, compassionate workplaces.


Together, we explore:

  • How introverts can thrive in leadership by honouring their energy, creating boundaries, and trusting the process
  • Context awareness as a powerful (and often overlooked) leadership strength — especially for women and women of colour
  • Why idealistic women need a different kind of leadership guidance than what mainstream corporate literature offers
  • The emotional agility and relational intelligence women bring to organisational life
  • How values-based decisions become catalysts for courage, clarity, and career direction
  • The importance of intergenerational wisdom, and why Boomers, Millennials, and Gen Z have more to learn from each other than we think
  • Jodi also shares remarkable stories from her book, including moments when women took a stand for their values — sometimes at the cost of their job — and how these choices shaped their leadership identities.



One Thing Jodi Wants You to Remember


“Standing up for your values — even in small moments — is what builds the courage to make bigger, life-changing decisions later on.”


Resources & Links

Get Jodi’s Book:

 Leading with Courage: A Career-Long Guide for Idealistic Women

Learn more about Jodi’s work:

Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves | JVD Consulting LLC


Join The Visible Introvert Community for resources to help you thrive as an introvert: serenalow.com.au


If You Enjoyed This Episode…
Please leave a 5-star rating and review to help us reach more introverts, quiet achievers, and idealistic leaders around the world.

This episode was edited by Aura House Productions

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, I'm Serena Lo. If you are used to hearing that introverts are shy, anxious, antisocial, and lack of good communication and leadership skills, then this podcast is for you. You're about to fall in love with a calm, introspective, and profound person that you are. Discover what's fun, unique, and powerful about being an introvert, and how to make the elegant transition from quiet achiever to quiet warrior in your life and work, anytime you want, in more ways than you imagined possible. Welcome. Hello and welcome. Today's guest on the Quiet Warrior Podcast is Dr. Jodi Vandenberg Daves, leadership strategist, coach, consultant, facilitator, editor, and author. Her work with organizations and individuals builds on more than 25 years of experience in higher education, nonprofit leadership power, authorship, power teaching, and mentoring. Jodi empowers leaders and facilitates career journeys for people at all stages with an emphasis on values, social impact, and creating inclusive communities. She is especially committed to developing diverse women's leadership power and promoting workplaces that help mothers and other caregivers succeed. Jodi's new book, Leading with Courage, A Career-Long Guide for Idealistic Women, offers a bold and practical framework for women seeking purpose-driven careers grounded in justice and authenticity. Welcome, Jodi, to the Quiet Warrior Podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

It's such a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited for the conversation. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

Jodi, could you start off by telling us a bit about your own experience with introversion and how it was like for you at work when you had to face large groups?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thank you for that question. Um, you know, it's something that I think when I was growing up, I don't know that I fully identified as an introvert, but when I look back, I really enjoyed the sort of quietness of being a student and then a scholar. And branching out into learning to teach was a really big learning curve for me. And I think some of it was the just wow, it's a lot to be up in front of these groups and sounding smart. And I think part of my journey has been from that pursuit of knowledge for myself and especially for social change out into the classroom. And then also maybe more into spaces where I can do smaller connecting and mentoring. And so, and that's, you know, really been part of my career shift too. I will say that I learned to love public speaking over time. It took a long time. I think it took longer than average for me. But once I got good at it, I really it became something I enjoy. And I think that's partly because there's a role. You have a role when you're doing that. That's a little different than being in an amorphous group where you're not sure what your role is. And so I feel like it, it, it works with me being an introvert, but then I I have that kind of accordion thing where I expand out and then I kind of um compress in. And I know that you talk about that quite a bit on your podcast. Um, but I think one of the things I've also learned to honor is my ability for deep connections with people that often happen happen in smaller spaces. And again, I think that's part of the journey from the pursuit of knowledge to the pursuit of connection and mutual empowerment. And so I still love pursuing knowledge and talking about interesting intellectual things and the grand sweep of history as a historian. Uh, and I and I do enjoy some public speaking. But I, you know, I think that part of the reason I didn't go to a normal retirement age at the university is that it was a lot for me. I remember like the meeting when I would meet my first day of students, I would say to myself, wow, if I had three classes on a Tuesday, 85 minutes each, I would say, I just met like a hundred people. Like, that's a lot. You know, and by about the third day of class, more of those people would become people in the sense that like they would start speaking. We would start developing a dynamic. But I learned to realize, wow, that's just a lot of launching energy for me in a new semester as an introvert. So kind of learning to take care of myself around that.

SPEAKER_01:

I would love to hear more about how you took care of yourself in the midst of that. But before that, I wanted to highlight also the pursuit of knowledge that became a pursuit for connection. That is beautiful and that is powerful. I think a lot of our introverts and quiet achievers can relate to that because we're all lifelong learners. We crave the next new thing, finding out more. We're just endlessly curious. But it's one thing to pursue knowledge uh in a vacuum. We can be quite happy inside our bubble doing that, and we don't have to talk to anybody about it. But that pursuit of connection that requires us to, as you say, it requires an expense of energy.

SPEAKER_02:

And you said that you know, those 100 people became people.

SPEAKER_01:

And I love that that observation because I I remember times when I'm speaking to a group of people and they are other people, but then when you look at each of them, and then you recognize them and you realize each of them is an individual, each one with putting out their own energy, putting out their own ideas, you know, impressing their their uniqueness upon the group, and that affects the group dynamic.

SPEAKER_02:

So that change that noticing, wow, that is powerful. Thank you. Yeah. So how did you take care of yourself in the midst of speaking to a hundred people a day?

SPEAKER_00:

I think I had a lot of good boundaries around space. You know, uh throughout many of my years as a professor, I would, okay, I would expend that energy on my heavy teaching days, and then I would go and retreat to the coffee shop and do my write my lectures and things like that on my non-teaching days. Even when I was a department chair, I would go, well, I'm a department chair in the afternoon. You know, I mean, I'll make I'll be sure to make myself available to people, but faculty come and go anyway. It wasn't like I needed to be around all the time. And so I think spatial boundaries were important to me. And then um learning to trust the process of, okay, it's going to be like this. There's really actually no way to make it that much easier to meet that many new people and get to know them in the first couple of weeks. You just have to sort of do the basic self-care things to sustain yourself while you relax into, okay, this is not just a random group of people. This is that class that has this particular dynamic that has, you know, these two or three people that I've already gotten to know in week two and I'm excited to see them. And, you know, we might chat after class or they might come to my office hours. I also, you know, sometimes would just um in some of my smaller classes, I would kind of shift the things around so that um I would even re-jigger the way that we organize class. So I would have office hour signups for one brief one-on-ones with me that I would do over two or three class periods if it was a research intensive or if it was one of my leadership classes where I really wanted to get to know them as individuals. And that also was helpful for me. Um yeah, those are a few things.

SPEAKER_01:

Those few things are very useful things because I think what you said particularly was about trusting the process. And there is an element there I think the the quiet achiever can relate to because we sometimes struggle to trust in our attempt to control everything, to manage, to anticipate, to prepare, because we don't like winging it. We don't like making things up on the fly or having to respond in the moment. It's uh we just wired differently. We like preparation and you know, loads of it, the more the better. So for you saying that you know, trust the process, uh know that it doesn't get very much easier. There's there's not that many things you can do to tweak it because we're always looking for ways to tweak and refine and you know shorten the learning curve and all those things. But this is also about respecting uh the process, that this is how academia works, this is how your groups work, right? These are the people that make up the dynamic that influence how you react and how you teach and how you communicate with them in a way that they can learn effectively and receive the outcomes that they are they signed up for. So I think being sensitive to all those things.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. And and I think I, you know, I learned, I mean, part of my I think my leadership was trying to empower other faculty to teach the way they wanted to teach and what worked for them. And I I once co-taught a class with a person who was was a wonderful teacher, but he was actually way more, I will say, almost touchy-feely than I am. I think I found a little more comfort in in kind of being behind my academic mask a little bit. And, you know, I learned from that, but I thought, but it's not exactly me. And I'm also, you know, in in the in a especially in a history classroom. Um, and I'm not someone who I think sort of has spent a lot of time in let's do an icebreaker kinds of environments, or let's do a lot of sharing, partly because of the field that I was trained in, which is history, which even in the publishing realm for historians, we don't tend to publish with others like a lot of other like economists and others do. There's that sort of like stay in your lane a little bit, but but respect what you bring to your lane. Kind of learn to value the strengths and who I am and and the challenges of being a little bit more introverted. Uh, but just if I can own that, I can also help other people around me own their strengths as teachers and in other ways as professionals.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's a very important point to recognize. When you said mask, all of us, I think, wear one at least, one mask. And when we go out professionally, we show up as a certain kind of person, we put on a certain persona, and that is necessary to get the work done. But you're also saying at the same time to recognize what is it that you bring to your role that is different from other people? What is it that makes uh makes it easier for your students to receive what you are teaching them in a particular way that helps them? So that is your unique strength. And each of us has got a set of those uh skills and strengths that we need to recognize and embrace and use more. And that is a beautiful thing. So, what uh inspired you to leave academia and move into business? What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00:

I think I've always had an entrepreneurial streak and um always play around with ideas of this would be fun to do, that would be fun to do, but I have a lot of papers to grade. And um I was in academia a long time. I felt like I had just done so many things there. I I literally created and taught 21 different undergraduate courses. I ran large federal grants, I did a lot of researching and writing, I did a lot of just different special projects. I did academic leadership, I was a department chair, I was a faculty fellow helping mentor people on grants, all kinds of you know, cool things. But I think, you know, I started to feel like I've explored a lot of the corners of the box. I had even stepped into sort of part-time, uh part-time work at the university to do some nonprofit directing for my uh diversity council in my community, which was really rewarding as well. Um, but I I felt like I had I wanted to kind of leave when I was still in a good place with people and uh kind of doing well with my work, but also able to explore some other things. And I think some of that does connect to how I framed it, which is that pursuit of connection and wanting to do that in different ways and different spaces outside of maybe the bureaucracy of the university and bringing my mentoring strength that I've really had developed over the years into coaching and bringing my kind of um speaking and educating on empowering diverse leaders into other spaces as well. Because I had done really since probably around 2012, I'd been doing quite a bit of speaking in the community. And um, and you know, it's fun to make your classroom a little bit bigger, but also just learn from other people, engage people outside of the academic world, um, and develop those coaching and online learning um experiences that I've been doing. Plus, I really, you know, it was difficult to envision, as my last role, I was department chair, to envision finishing the writing project that became this book. Even though I had a sabbatical to do it, I had a lot more. I knew I wanted to get done as a writer and an author. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's talk about the book. So it's called Leading with Courage: a career-long guide for idealistic women. What inspired it and who did you write it for?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I taught a course on gender and leadership, gender, race, and leadership was the name of it by the end, um, for quite a number of years. And it was hard to find readings that inspired my students. And part of the reason for that is that the leadership literature, it tend there tends to be a big gap between the people writing those and the people in my classroom. And that's not just the people in my classroom. I would also say the people in my community, um, it tends to be very um coastal elite focused, big corporate names, CEOs, and even just the aspirations where, you know, nice girls get the corner office. Um, and and there's nothing wrong with, I want women to aspire to the highest levels, and we absolutely need more women at the highest levels, more diverse women, more people of uh, you know, more gender diversity altogether. But I wanted to find a way to talk about leadership more expansively. So um, and and how we're, you know, I saw leadership in my students. I see leadership in, you know, I see leadership in the young professionals I mentored in the mid-career and the people, people who are older. And so I wanted to create a leadership, a kind of manual that is really expansive of the whole career journey, but is also, and this is also what the big divergence from I think a lot of the other leadership literature, values-based, particularly progressive social justice values, that diversity, equity, inclusion, those values. Um, you know, I had the privilege of working with so many young people who were driven by those values and goals. And so I wanted to put that um that kind of work out there. And I love to do oral history, so I collected a lot of stories for it, um, but I also put a lot of my own advice and experience, um, you know, things I'd learned, consulting and coaching, it all kind of goes in there.

SPEAKER_02:

And research, research. You know, it's research-based.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So basically, you took all your skills, all your experience, all your wisdom, all the conversations as an academic, and you put them into the book to fill the gaps that you had noticed between what was out there and what people actually needed and were looking for.

SPEAKER_00:

I hope that's I hope that's how it lands as something people are needing and looking for. I I tried to make sure that I was talking to people in different sectors of the economy too, because a lot of the leadership literature is only about the corporate world. I didn't, I had, you know, the corporate world is in there. Um, among the women I interviewed, the corporate world is definitely in there. But also in a smaller economy like the one I live in, you have a lot of people who spend their entire careers in healthcare or in education or in government or in nonprofit work. And as a historian, you know, I vary into illuminating context. And so I think that's another piece that needed more development in a lot of the advice literature to women is what are the contexts that you're experiencing? And the context for, say, nonprofit work is often, you know, scraping nickels off the floor kind of budget situation. And it's not sexism in the nonprofit world doesn't necessarily look the same as in a male heavy leadership corporate environment. So, you know, you may be working with a lot of women, but the context of underfunding and, you know, in our in the case of the United States, a hollowed-out state that makes, you know, providing resources really challenging can create sort of burnout situations, you know, especially for young women who are idealistic. So I tried to really encompass some of that context uh piece. And and really, I believe that context awareness is a very important leadership skill. It and it's a it's a skill that helps you be sensitive to how other people are experiencing the context, but also to how you're experiencing the context and whether that context is sustainable for you. Maybe it's something you can learn from for a little while, but maybe it's not your context forever. But being able to identify why is that, what's going on there, kind of that systems thinking is I think an under sung element of leadership.

SPEAKER_02:

You mentioned idealistic women. Yeah. Why particularly idealistic women? Well, what is it about them?

SPEAKER_00:

I had I had a challenge with the title. Um but I think that it's about being values driven and seeing your your work as part of something bigger and and trying to hang on to your ideals in in the face of imperfect and sometimes really imperfect in very gritty, challenging ways, imperfect systems, you know, and so trying to nurture some idealism and honor your values. And I really argue in the book that we can empower ourselves through through standing up for our values. That I think that, you know, the individualistic kind of ethos of a lot of leadership advice since, you know, tends to be very transactional and advancement oriented and, you know, um, figure out your brand. Um, it's nothing, you know, there's a lot of value in all of that. But I found with these women that I interviewed who had had pretty purposeful careers that the moments of really standing up for their values were were critical for them in defining who they were, in moving themselves forward and in just kind of um figuring out the impact they wanted to make and sticking with their purpose.

SPEAKER_01:

What's an example or a story you can share from the book about this part?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so one story is someone who is um older now, so she's actually a baby boomer. We do still have some baby boomers in the workplace. But when she was pretty young, she was an assistant, she was in an assistant district attorney's office working there. And she there was a victim of sexual abuse. Um, and this uh this person I interviewed was asked by her boss to order a rape kit for this young woman. And my interviewee knew that this would yield nothing because, and she was very young, she was like 14 years old, but it would yield nothing because the abuse was not recent and it would re-traumatize her. And so my interviewee um said, I will not do it. And they said, Well, you need to do it. And then she called someone she knew, she called a nurse, and she said, I'm right, aren't I? I'm right, that this is not gonna help. And indeed that was the case. And this person said, Um, I've never done this in my whole life. I slammed the door, I and I quit the job. And I knew that it was the first time I'd really. Thought about systems being imperfect. I was in my late 20s and I'm I'm paraphrasing here, but I knew that I couldn't keep this job if I wouldn't do what my boss said, but I couldn't do what my boss said. And so I went on to go, I decided right then and there I needed to go to graduate school and and kind of make my own journey a little different. And so that would, it led to an empowering decision by drawing that kind of line in the sand. And I think, you know, um kind of more less dramatically, you know, one of the women I interviewed said, I was asked to lie once when I was, you know, pretty young. And I was like, I'm I'm not gonna do that. And I realized that those little decisions empowered me to make bigger decisions as time went on. Um, and then, you know, it can show up in so many other ways, like in how, you know, one of the amazing leaders I interviewed who does lead her organization. She's the top of her organization. Um her part of her values in action are making things really consensus-driven in her organization and having all kinds of feedback mechanisms and having people have ways to vote and have impact input on, say, their health insurance plan. They all, as a they all, and this is a large organization, they recently decided um and worked it out through various feedback mechanisms and committees and voting processes to go to a four-day work week. And those are things that she that are living her values for her. Um, and and those, so those are a few examples.

SPEAKER_01:

Fantastic examples. What I'm hearing is regardless of age or where you are in your career, women can exert or practice leadership even without the leadership role. Because this is you're talking about honoring your values, drawing a line in the set.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And even coming to understand what your values are, or I mean, maybe it's just maybe it's just speaking up in one little situation. Um, it just um it doesn't always, again, it doesn't always have to be a dramatic quit experience or but but it's and it's like learning that who you want to work with and how you want to spend your time and and what projects, if you have any choice at all over your work assignment, how you can choose projects that are going to align with your values. So it's some of that.

SPEAKER_01:

So this is to do with self-awareness and also being willing to advocate or to speak up for your values when it counts. What do you see as women's unique strengths that they bring as leaders?

SPEAKER_00:

So I think the context awareness is one important piece of this because women, and especially in the in the US, I'll say women of color, there's a lot of research on this, you know, having to move and operate in systems that they usually did not create and were created, not necessarily with them in mind. And going into spaces, if you're the only woman on a, you know, a board in a tech company, or if you're the only woman of color as a faculty member in a in a department in a predominantly white university, you are seeing things from a little bit different angle than a lot of other people do. Um, and you're also sometimes having to code switch with how you speak and with different groups that you interact with. I mean, another example I can give is, and I've heard this many times from women who become mothers, all of a sudden their workplace looks different. Oh, so we don't have anywhere to pump for nursing mothers. Oh, so this is what our leave policies are like. Oh, so this is the limits of our health insurance. Um, and so that context awareness from being feeling like outsiders in any way, those are challenging experiences that can be scarring and can be awful and can drive people out, but they can also be the stuff of wisdom and leadership skills. And that's why there's a lot of research showing so many people like to work with women leaders. They do a lot more. There's research showing that they are women leaders are more likely to do diversity, equity, inclusion work. They're more likely to say they value that and actually do it. Um they're more likely than men leaders to help other workers manage burnout, which is a huge issue in the workplace. And so some of those pro-social values that women are often socialized into, now, of course, that can be exploited. You know, as I started talking about nonprofits, and I and how it's always a challenging kind of needle to thread. How do we both name and claim the emotional superpowers that women tend to have? Not all women, don't get me wrong, but women tend to have, but not exploit them. And I would add to that emotional agility, um, ability to listen to lots of different perspectives. Again, we have research showing that women leaders are more likely to take into account multiple perspectives before making a decision. And those are all things in a in an environment, our our workplace environments now that are so full of rapid change. Um we and relationship building like that, and the ability to manage conflict and be emotionally agile and pay attention to different groups and constituencies, those are what's needed. I mean, the research literature calls it transformational leadership. Um, and it and it's women do have a slight edge with it. Anyone can do that. There are men leaders who do this, non-binary leaders who do this, people who do this, right? But women do tend to have a little edge on some of these things. So hopefully those are some examples that make sense.

SPEAKER_01:

Those are very helpful examples indeed. What is one thing you want our listeners to take away from our conversation today?

SPEAKER_00:

Leadership is very expansive, and you're probably already leading from wherever you are. So I would say learn to find your strengths and get curious about other ways to think about leadership skills, advocacy, mentoring, team building, um, being the architects of compassionate and innovative cultures in the workplace. These are leadership skills that you can do as an introvert, that you can do through building relationships and through building self-awareness.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

So instead of just focusing on leadership as in a role that I have or a title that I have, I'm looking at leadership from a place that I already occupy. How can I do this better? How can I foster those deep connections with people? How can I bring my unique strengths, staying in my own lane, but at the same time also knowing what I care about, why I care about those things, and speaking up, communicating, I think, much more.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that is an aspect of leadership. Absolutely. And and that communication, um, you know, with the like you mentioned with a lot of introverts, there's a thoughtfulness to that communication. That is that is another superpower. And another woman I interviewed, yeah, I think something you said made me think of it. She said um that as a young nurse, you know, she ended her career as a VP in the HR realm, but you know, she had her background was nursing. Um, and she said, as a young nurse, I started to realize, oh, people are giving me more responsibility. And you know, it was just that self-awareness in and of itself was good. And then she said to herself, how can I do this authentically? And I and I thought that was just such an important question to notice, oh, more responsibility is coming my way. How can I do it authentically? Not just how can I please people and make sure that they are glad they asked me to do it, but how can I do it authentically?

SPEAKER_02:

That is next level thinking. That goes beyond. That's why I interviewed these amazing women. Yes, yes. Wow. Yeah, I want that for young people.

SPEAKER_00:

I want I want young people to be able to, you know, I think that's part of what I hope this book will do is um allow help foster some of those thought patterns. And oh, I could think about it this way, even when you're younger. And that's part of the the joy of tapping into the wisdom of some of my older interviewees. Um, and I do hope the book also fosters some intergenerational conversations, because I feel like we're in a moment where there's a lot of kind of cultural memes about get out of the way boomers, and Gen Z is out to lunch and whatever, you know, just these kind of um ideas that the generations don't have anything to offer one another. And as a historian, I'm I just can't, I can't abide that. Of course we do. Of course we have a lot to offer one another. But we need to understand that we do have some different contexts generationally.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that context awareness that you mentioned at the start of this conversation, it feels like a theme that keeps popping up in a very important way. Because when we understand the context that somebody has come out of, you know, whatever generation they belong to, we understand the bigger picture, we understand the history, what what else was happening in the world at that time that has influenced their generation? And then you look at it at a as a cross-generation, as a historian, I'm sure, from a big picture point of view, these are all the things that have been happening through the ages, or what patterns am I noticing? How are these patterns intersecting? What can I do to help? How can all of us uh understand each other better? How can we look beyond our own immediate environment and constraints and problems? And you know, this is the stuff that I'm going through in my daily life, but what is this person and that person and that other person also going through because of what has happened before that I'm not aware of? That's outside my time, uh my time frame. And I think when you when you start looking at it that way, that what what you've just said about how the generations need to work together is inspiring me to think in a new direction with that as well. So that is that is very, very helpful, very um actually it's quite exciting when you think about you know what you said about tapping into the collective wisdom.

SPEAKER_00:

Hmm, I'm excited about it. Yeah. Yeah, like I said, I hope there's some some more intergenerational conversations, you know. Um I I just and I do spend a lot of time kind of laying out the context for the young people because I think it it's it's also too easy for older people to say, well, I did it, that I did it, I got through it, I got through that hard time in my life. But some of the realities about economic inequality and the mental health challenges of younger people and the social media piece and you know, things like that, so that it helps to understand one another, but it also helps to understand that older people, you know, could have been legally fired for being gay in the United States or may have even come of age when, you know, before the Pregnancy Discrimination Act of 1978, they could be fired for being pregnant. Um, so much racism was um allowed and you know not dealt with. Um, I'm not saying that that's not still happening today too much, but there we do have laws and coalitions and more people with with you know raising their voices on those issues. And so the environment has shifted in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01:

And where can we get a copy of your book?

SPEAKER_00:

So uh it's distributed through Ingram Spark and on bookshop.org to support local bookstores and also at a large retailer whose name everyone knows, and there's no problem reason, probable reason for me to repeat it.

SPEAKER_01:

Excellent. So we'll make sure to include all the useful links for our listeners. And I just want to end by thanking you, Dr. Jodi, for a very illuminating conversation today from the historical perspective, but also making us aware of the importance of context when we're talking to people and about how uh it's important to foster deep connection with people wherever we work, and about the strengths of women in leadership. And regardless of where we are in our career and what uh title we have or where we are in the organizational hierarchy, we can still practice leadership, right? Because first and foremost, we are leaders of ourselves. And then when when we speak up about our values and honor those values, then we are also leading others and showing others and empowering others to be leaders in their own circles too. So I really appreciate this very intellectual conversation with you today. I've learned a lot and I'm sure our listeners will as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, thank you. It's been such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01:

If you've enjoyed this episode of the Quiet Warrior Podcast, be sure to leave a five-star rating and review to help us reach more introverts and quiet achievers around the world. And for resources on how to thrive as an introvert, make sure to join the visible introvert community at serenalo.com.au. See you on the next episode. I'm so grateful that you're here today. If you found this content valuable, please share it on your social media channels and subscribe to the show on your favorite listening platform. Together we can help more introverts thrive. To receive more uplifting content like this, connect with me on Instagram at Serenaloo, Quiet Warrior Coach. Thank you for sharing your time and your energy with me. See you on the next episode.