112. Why Empathy (Not “Nice-ness”) Drives Performance with Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

TEDx speaker, EQ coach, and author Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller joins Serena to challenge the myth that empathy is a “soft” extra. She shares her journey from French horn professor to empathy-in-leadership researcher after a toxic workplace experience, then breaks down the different types of empathy and how leaders actually apply them—especially in tough conversations and high-pressure environments. 

Key Takeaways

• Empathy is multi-dimensional. Beyond “I feel what you feel,” leaders can (and must) use cognitive empathy (perspective-taking) and self-empathy (self-awareness and reflection). These forms help you understand others even without shared experiences. 
• Empathy takes work—and courage. Many avoid it because stepping into someone’s world can be uncomfortable; only about a third will choose the empathy-requiring path. 
• The “dual-route” model matters. Emotional empathy is fast and instinctive; cognitive empathy is slower and chosen. Effective leaders use both. 
• Boundaries ≠ lack of empathy. Self-empathy means knowing your capacity and keeping boundaries so you can truly show up for others. 
• Kind vs. nice. Empathy isn’t people-pleasing. It may require hard conversations (e.g., honest performance feedback) done with care so people can grow. 
• Business case: When leaders genuinely employ empathy, productivity, innovation, and profit rise; performative “buzzword” empathy backfires and erodes trust. 
• Empathy first, then EI tools. Consider empathy the precursor that helps you choose the right emotional-intelligence skill for the moment. 
• Start with self-empathy. You can’t sustain empathy for others without it. 

Practical Takeaways for Introverted & HSP Leaders

• Use cognitive empathy prompts in 1:1s: “What might this look like from their side?” (choose to perspective-take). 
• Check capacity before deep talks: if depleted, set a boundary and reschedule—this is self-empathy in action. 
• Replace “nice” with “kind + clear”: deliver honest feedback that enables growth; skip people-pleasing. 
• Lead with empathy, then select the EI tool (communication, motivation, etc.) that fits. 

Memorable Quote

“Empathy is not always very nice—but it’s always kind.” 

About the book

The Empathic Leader: How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity, and Innovation — a primer on what empathy is (and isn’t) and how to apply it in today’s AI-shaped workplaces. 

Next Steps

FIND OUT MORE about Melissa’s work:
https://eqviaempathy.com/

SHARE this episode with a colleague who’s leading change.

WORK WITH SERENA:
I help introverted professional women be visible and valued without performing extroversion.

Book a private Zoom call HERE.

This episode was edited by Aura House Productions

Transcript

Meet Dr Melissa And Her Mission

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome. Today's guest on the Quiet Warrior podcast is Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller. Melissa doesn't just talk about leadership, but she's challenging us to do it differently. With over 20 years of cross-industry experience, she helps leaders build emotionally intelligent cultures that don't just feel better, they perform better. A TEDx speaker, EQ coach, and author of The Empathic Leader, Melissa blends research, real-world insight, and lived experience to make empathy actionable at every level of leadership. She's on a mission to prove that the so-called soft skills are the ones driving the hard results and the future of leadership depends on them. Welcome, Melissa, to the Quiet Warrior Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Thank you so much for having me, Serena. I'm honored to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

I'm so excited to talk with you, Melissa. Could you take us back to your professional journey and how your career shifted after experiencing unempathic leadership?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yes. I appreciate you asking because I think a lot of us have experienced that unempathic leadership and toxic workplaces. I was a performing musician for most of my life. I played French horn, I played in orchestras, I toured, I did stuff. But I needed a little more stability. So I went and got my first doctorate and became a French horn professor. But within my very first term, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues, which was rough. But after that, I had a really hard time getting my institution to acknowledge what had happened and help me and understand that, you know, these this kind of behavior shouldn't stand. They were more concerned about covering it up and pretending it didn't happen. So by the end of about seven years, I ended up having to leave that institution. And in the process, I ended up having to leave music. COVID hit not long after that. And it just that was kind of the end of that. And I was in my early 40s by then, but I kept trying to figure out what had gone wrong. What was the disconnect? What was the thing that this whole system seemed to lack? And that's how I got onto the idea of emotional intelligence and especially empathy and that connection between people. And so I decided this was something I really wanted to study in depth, especially in terms of leadership. So I started my second doctorate on interdisciplinary leadership. And I'm working on my dissertation now on empathy and leadership because I think it's that important, especially in the world that we live in today.

Defining Empathy And Its Types

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Thank you so much for sharing that. What is your definition of empathy?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Empathy is the ability to understand and connect between people through taking the other person's point of view. It's called perspective taking. Yeah, there's a lot of different kinds of empathy, and we always think it's I feel what you feel. And that's the popular definition. That is one of them. But there's other kinds that people tend to miss, like cognitive empathy, which means that I logically understand what you feel, but I don't feel anything. There's self-empathy, which is about connecting to yourself and being able to understand why you react and what you do, you know, within yourself, self-reflection. So just feeling isn't enough. It's a lot more about connecting and understanding where the other person is, even if that person happens to be you.

Willingness, Discomfort, And Empathy’s Work

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Thank you for clarifying, because I think a lot of us are not aware that there are so many kinds of empathy. And like you say, the popular definition, the one we always think about is, oh, I I see where you are or I feel you. But you're right. I think cognitive empathy may be where more of us are at, as in I logically understand what you're saying, but I don't feel what you feel because maybe I haven't had a similar experience. So then how do we how do we really display genuine empathy without having had a shared experience? Is it possible to go beyond just using logic?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because you don't, the thing with empathy is you don't necessarily have to share the experience. It's more of understanding where the other person is at. So let's say that, you know, the other person has had someone close to them pass away and they're in that deep grief. And maybe for whatever reason you don't necessarily know what it is to have someone pass away, but you understand loss because you've lost a job or you've lost a pet, or you know, you've you've lost something very important in your life, like when I lost my music career, you know, I definitely felt that sense of loss. So that's where cognitive empathy comes in and says, Yeah, I don't necessarily feel that grief that you feel, but I understand your perspective of where you're at because I've had these things happen to me as well. So I can put myself in your shoes and understand where you're at.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Do you think there's also an element of wanting to understand? Because sometimes we we may think we are good people, but there are situations where we don't really want to go that far. We don't really want to enter into somebody's world. And you did say perspective taking. And for we for us to take somebody else's perspective, there has to be that willingness to step into, to cross over from my world into your world. And sometimes people feel uncomfortable doing that. Why do you think that is?

Capacity, Boundaries, And Self‑Empathy

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I think there's two reasons. I mean, number one, when you step into that world, you're potentially taking on some of those hard emotions, having to understand in yourself where those hard emotions lie. It takes courage to step into that, knowing full well that it may be very uncomfortable. And, you know, there's no other way to put it because you're you're in that bubble with that person, even if it's just logically. The other thing is, and there's studies that show this, is in order to actually get into these empathetic situations, it takes work. And so a lot of people aren't willing to put in that kind of work. Like when they're given the option of having a situation that takes empathy or having a situation that doesn't, only 35% of the survey participants will step into the situation that takes empathy because it does take work. It's exactly like you said, you do have to be prepared for what you're about to step into. There's a really interesting theory. It's called the dual root model of empathy. And it's this idea that emotional and logical cognitive empathy work hand in hand, but it's called dual root because neurologically it actually takes two different roots in the brain. So the emotional empathy happens fast, it's instinctive, and it's just there it is. The cognitive one is slower, it's iterative, and it's something you can choose. So this idea that these two work hand in hand, you know, in all of us to different degrees, I think is a big part of the reason why people will be like, oh, that's uncomfortable. I think I'm gonna stay away from it. You get the fast one, and then you go, yeah, I'm not gonna step in on the cognitive side. Whereas that's actually your opportunity to say, I'm going to make a choice to actually understand the other person's perspective.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

You mentioned courage. And I think also maybe from a self-empathy perspective, the other person, the person that's doing the listening, that's on the receiving end of that situation, also needs to be prepared that they have enough capacity in that moment to listen, to receive, and to really sit with. And we are not always in, you know, having that capacity. Sometimes we are preoccupied, sometimes we're going through something big ourselves, we just haven't got the bandwidth. Would that be right?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Oh, absolutely. I mean, having empathy doesn't mean you don't have boundaries. And if you're in that spot yourself and you have to have those boundaries, that's part of having self-empathy, of understanding, yes, I I want to be there for this person, but I need to take care of myself first. Because if I don't take care of myself, I can't take care of anybody else.

Introverts, Sensitivity, And Science

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yes. So that's that self-awareness piece, which I think for listeners is very important. When you are about to extend empathy, also be aware that it will cost you something and make sure that you are sufficiently buffered or grounded in a way that lets you receive that information or sit with that person without burning yourself out. So my next question is to do with the introversion, extroversion spectrum. So I work as a coach with a lot of introverts and highly sensitive people, and some of them are also empaths. Now, is there any connection at all in your research between being empathic and being and where you sit on this introversion, extroversion spectrum?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So, with being empathic, the whole idea is you're able to pick up on other people's emotions and are highly sensitive to the energy of other people. And even though there's nothing really in the research, just because it's very difficult to test, how are you going to quantify that? You know, um, I personally do believe there's something to it because if you are seeking to take perspective, if you are trying to understand the other person, there's going to be that kind of understanding. And just because science doesn't necessarily agree that it is or isn't there, it doesn't mean that it's not. Science sometimes takes a little while to catch up with the reality of what happens on this planet.

Inside The Empathic Leader Book

SPEAKER_01 10:03

That's a good response and a good thing to think about, that there is a lag possibly between science and what we know intuitively. So that's um good news for our highly sensitive listeners. Let's talk about your book. It's called The Empathic Leader, how EQ via empathy transforms leadership for better profit, productivity, and innovation. Can you talk us through what inspired you to write it and what's one takeaway you hope for every leader to walk away with after reading it?

Debunking Soft Skills And Myths

SPEAKER_00 10:40

I really wanted kind of a primer with the stuff that I work with with my leaders. What is empathy? What is empathy not? How do you actually employ it? Be going through the emotional empathy, cognitive empathy, self-empathy. How does it fit in today's world, in a world of AI, in a world of big tech? You know, how does it relate to other emotional intelligence skills like communication and self-motivation and self-reflection and self-awareness and, you know, all of that stuff. So that's really what it is. It's it's kind of the opportunity to dip your toes into what this is and understand why it's so important to leadership. Because there are surveys that do show that it does increase profit, productivity, and innovation. And it also shows that organizations that don't use it tend to lose these things and they don't do as well. I mean, if they're doing well with, say, productivity, it'll plummet when all of a sudden their leaders aren't using it. People that are in what they consider unempathetic workplaces, their innovation goes down to like 17%. It's it's the numbers are there to back it up. And the reason why I wanted to write it is just I wanted to have it in people's hands so they could start to get an idea. There's just so many myths about empathy out in the world, you know, what it is and what it isn't. And I I kind of wanted to clear some of that up because I think by having a better understanding of what it is and that it is, part of it is a skill, which means it's a choice. People can actually start to use it, not just in organizations, but in their everyday lives. Because that's one myth that's out there, right? That either you're born with it or you're not. And for some kinds of empathy, that's kind of true. I mean, even though most of society has it biologically, but you still have a choice whether you're going to employ it or not. And I think that's the part a lot of people miss.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Anything that sounds like hard work, yes, I think that will make people pause and think, do I really want to go there? Because then that means I have to change my whole way of being. It's not just about, oh, today I'm empathic and tomorrow I'm not. It sort of shifts your identity. Then you have to show up in a very different way. And there has to be some consistency, which means, you know, watching yourself, fostering those habits, becoming a lot more conscious in how you treat people. I can see why. So, what makes an empathic leader?

Empathy As Precursor To EQ

SPEAKER_00 13:12

It's going to be someone who actually wants to connect not just with their people, I mean, to be able to raise profit productivity and innovation, but also with the organization. I mean, when you think of it systemically, right, then this is an organism. That's where the organization comes from. So by being able to understand and connect with the systems, you don't end up with toxic systems like the one I was involved in. You don't end up with toxic workplaces where you end up with employee attrition that costs 90 to 200% of an employee's salary to replace them. You're actually able to understand that difference between having empathy and not having boundaries because it's it's still a business. I mean, they these organizations are around for a reason. They have businesses have to make money or they don't exist. But by actually being in touch with the people and with the organization, you're able to create this energy within where you do create profit productivity and innovation with boundaries, potentially having to make the hard decisions and doing it in a way that benefits everybody, or as many as possible, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

What is the relationship between empathy and having emotional intelligence?

SPEAKER_00 14:29

So originally, emotional intelligence was coined as a term in 1990, and the book that really put it on the map for leaders and psychologists and the general public was written in 1995 by Daniel Goleman. And in this book, he broke emotional intelligence, which is the ability to understand and control my emotions and to understand yours into five categories. And empathy was part of that. So there was motivation and uh technical skills like communication, empathy, um, self-awareness, and one other that I'm not, I can't remember right now. But the point is that he put it in this big bucket. So all these skills are in there, and that's the connection between empathy and emotional intelligence. I actually happen to think you have to take empathy out of that bucket. And it should be a precursor to emotional intelligence. Because if you can't understand and connect with your people first, how do you know which emotional intelligence skills to use? And I think that may be one of the reasons why we've been working on emotional intelligence for 35 years and yet it still isn't integrated the way maybe we would like it to be.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

I hadn't thought about it like that. And you could take empathy out of the bucket and consider it separately. So it's a prerequisite, did you say, that you have to have empathy first before you can deploy your emotional intelligence skills.

The Business Case And Trust

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, I think so. Now, one thing about those kind of subjects, you know, where they're really deep and really broad, there will always be people that disagree. And that's just that's just part of it, right? When you're dealing with human behavior, it's so complex. But I I really think that if you start with empathy and that connecting, and again, that doesn't mean being soft, that doesn't mean, you know, being a people pleaser, that doesn't mean not having boundaries, but starting with that empathy, so you understand and connect, now you know when you reach into that big tool bag of emotional intelligence skills, whether you're reaching in for a screwdriver or a hammer.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

It's very wise when you put it that way. It seems more obvious. There's still a perception that empathy is one of the soft skills. But you're helping organizations to improve profits, retention, and productivity through EQ. So, what do you say to leaders who still don't see the business case for empathy?

Practising Empathy In Tough Reviews

SPEAKER_00 17:05

There was a study that was done by Ernst and Young in the wake of the pandemic. It would have been right around the time of the great resignation. And they surveyed leaders, they surveyed employees, and they were specifically looking at empathy. And they wanted to know how empathy was, you know, worked within the workplace. I mean, because post-pandemic, there was just a lot of stuff going on, as I'm sure you and your audience remember. And through this survey, what they actually found was that organizations that could actively employ empathy raised their productivity by 87%, their innovation by 86%, and their profit by 84%. Two years later, they did a follow-up study where they wanted to actually see where these organizations were, because by then empathy was becoming a buzzword. And what they actually found were organizations that said they were all about empathy and suddenly put it in their mission, vision, and values, but didn't actually live up to that, their profit productivity and innovation went down because they came off as disingenuous and their people no longer trusted them. So, I mean, the data is there. If you use it, you can actually increase profit productivity and innovation. But if you're not willing to commit to it and you just want to use it as a buzzword, you're better off not to because you lose integrity that way.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

That's a very good point to raise. I think when when organizations are too fixated on buzzwords and trends and seeming to do the right thing, but actually they don't really sincerely want to do the right thing, that comes across because people are intelligent. We we can pick up when somebody is trying to pull a fast one. And over time that erodes trust and that erodes integrity. And that really is a disservice to the whole brand and the whole organization's intentions. So but in the in the context of a fast-paced and pressurizing business situation or business environment, what does applying emotional intelligence actually look like when you're having that conversation with colleagues?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

So one example of where I actually see it a lot is in employee appraisals, you know, where you have to have people come in and sometimes you have to have very hard conversations. And I've seen a lot of people where they'll just give employees good marks just because they don't want to have conflict. They don't want to, you know, rock the boat. But the thing is, is even though they feel that's nice and that's showing empathy, it's actually not. It's people pleasing, which is something else. Empathy would actually want what's best for that person, which means having the hard conversations where they can they have the opportunity to learn and grow. And also, if that is not the right fit for them, maybe giving them the opportunity to be able to go and find a place that is a good fit so they can thrive. Because not everybody is is meant for every position.

Nice Versus Kind In Feedback

SPEAKER_01 20:05

That's a good thing you pointed out there about people pleasing, because what I've noticed with my introverted clients also is that there is that element that they struggle with. And I've struggled it with it myself too, that we want to be all things to all people. We don't want conflict, we don't want to say things that might upset or offend somebody, we don't want that emotional fallout. So, you know, to be on the safe side, let's not say anything that sounds negative. Let's put on a face, you know, be be very pleasant, be very polite. But then we're doing a disservice to the other person because we're not being honest in a way that's going to be helpful. And if a person doesn't get realistic feedback, that's for their own growth, then they don't have that opportunity to grow and to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Yeah, precisely. And and that is you end up doing a disservice both to yourself and to them because you're losing the opportunity to actually employ your empathy and be able to work those skills and practice them and get better. And that person is potentially losing the opportunity to be able to find a spot where they can really thrive and grow as opposed to just kind of surviving.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yes. And that that takes us also to our relationship with work. How personally do we identify with the work that we currently do? Is that do we see that as, oh, that's me? That's a reflection on me personally. So therefore I feel attacked, and therefore I don't want to listen. So that too, if we're not received well, that also closes the door on perhaps on self-empathy, self-awareness, self-growth. And like you said, it's this particular role, this particular job or organization, that's just a temporal thing. There could be something else out there, something better out there. And so we want to be realistic in the way we see ourselves. And part of that is about, I guess, an empathetic exchange of honest information, but done sensitively. So there's that's quite a lot of balancing and you know, you know, being very careful and nuanced in our language as well, isn't it? It's not an easy thing to demonstrate empathy.

Human Advantage In An AI World

SPEAKER_00 22:10

No, it's it's really not. I mean, interpersonal, anytime you're dealing with something interpersonal, there's there's the potential for it to be difficult. But on the other hand, this is precisely why it's not soft. It takes courage to be able to use it. It takes courage to be able to walk into these kind of situations, and it takes real conviction to be able to say, I'm doing this because I want what's best for me and what's best for this other person. I may not be especially nice, but I'm going to be very kind. You know, they're two very different things. And empathy is not always very nice, but it's always kind.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I think this is a moment where we who are listening could reflect on the difference between being nice and being kind because it's easy to equate them, to assume that one means the other. And that's why we shy away from saying the truth or saying the honest thing. Because we want to be nice. So, with all the shifts that are happening in workplaces now, how do you see the role of empathy evolving in the next five or ten years of leadership?

SPEAKER_00 23:20

So, right now we're adding more and more stuff to the workplace that doesn't have empathy, like artificial intelligence, like big tech, like big data. And I think the more we add these things that don't have empathy, I mean, AI can mimic empathy. It can look like it has empathy, but it's not real connection. And it's definitely there's no perspective taking there. So it's not really empathy. And the more we add these things, the more the people who really can take others' perspectives and understand and connect are going to become a commodity. They're going to become the supercharged leaders for the future because they understand these human skills and they're going to end up being kind of like craftsmen where they're the ones who are going to be able to really further vision. You know, that's one thing about the machines and the things that don't have empathy in the workplace. They don't have vision necessarily. They they can kind of mimic it. They can mimic a lot of things that we as humans do, but they don't actually have it. So those that have empathy are going to be uniquely positioned to really be able to carry their vision into the better future state.

One Takeaway: Start With Self

SPEAKER_01 24:28

That is very exciting when you put it like that, Melissa, because it means that all we need to do is focus on being more human. Instead of panicking over what's going on in the environment and all these trends or this technology and what's going on, look for the opportunity to become even more human. What is it that makes us human? The ability to sit down, have a conversation, reopen our hearts, you know, share, you know, from a from a vulnerable perspective, also being very real, very kind, very sensitive and noticing what's needed in the conversation or what's needed by the other person. And those sorts of adjustments, we don't consciously think about them. They're quite intuitive. And I think that's where, as you just pointed out, that's where we have the advantage. And we need to lean even more into those aspects that make us human, the way we listen to people, or the way we choose not to say something because we want to create a space for that person's words to land. Those are magical abilities, and we should never, never underestimate or undermine them or give them away.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yes, I couldn't have put that better. It's absolutely true.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Well, what is one thing, Melissa, you want listeners to take away from our conversation today?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

To keep in mind that there is more than one kind of empathy, but that it really does start with self-empathy and understanding and connecting with yourself first. Because if you can't show empathy for yourself, you are never going to be able to show it for anybody else.

Closing, Links, And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Thank you. I think that's that's very true and makes so much sense. It has to start from the inside first. And when that part is solid, then we can extend it outwards. Because I think very early on in the conversation, you also said we can't give what we are not, or we can't give what we haven't got. So we need to have that capacity, that reserve. And when it comes from that place of I'm making this space to understand myself better. And because I understand myself, I can see why they might say what they just said, because I have been through something similar and I remember how I felt then. And then we start joining those dots. And that's how I think, you know, the gap between humans becomes a little smaller. So I want to thank you so much, Melissa, for coming on the Quiet Warrior podcast today to share your wisdom about the power of empathy, how empathy can be practiced in leadership, in workplaces, but also personally between humans. I think your work is really important. And I would highly recommend listeners to connect with you at your links in the show notes and buy your book, The Empathic Leader. Thank you so much for having me, Serena. This has been a treat. If you're ready to be seen, heard, and valued professionally without having to fake extroversion, book a call with me at the link in the show notes. I would love to support you to become a visible introvert. See you on the next episode. I'm so grateful that you're here today. If you found this content valuable, please share it on your social media channels and subscribe to the show on your favorite listening platform. Together we can help more introverts thrive. To receive more uplifting content like this, connect with me on Instagram at Serenalo Quiet Warrior Coach. Thank you for sharing your time and your energy with me. See you on the next episode.